Disregard for Certain Languages

[Rory_M]

Hello everyone, i have a very basic knowledge of C++ (output, input and variables, other simple stuff like that). I have also created very simple stuff like buying apples from a stall and quizzes. I decided to learn a lot more php because i was a newbie and followed the crowd, like a lot of us do because we are so eager to do something and it seems to be the easiest way.

I am aware that this forum is a MCcodes forum which uses php and JavaScript, but there seems to be a lot of disregard for languages such as C++, C# and Python, which are a all a lot more powerful than PHP. I think this forum needs to open individual Sections for at least one of the languages specified above, i know that the staff will all say "it will take up memory and make work harder for staff" and i am fully aware it will, but i am sure that a lot of people (including a_bertrand) have an interest in at least one of these languages, opening a different section for these languages would stop everything being dumped into "Other Programming". Out of the top 10 languages on Lang Pop only 3 of them are officially recognized on this site. If anyone else agrees with me then just say so below and we can get one of your Favorite languages on this site.

Thanks for reading, please join in on the discussion.

[Rory_M]

I am talking about programming languages, you have either not read it or are talking the Micheal.

[Dominion]

First off I have moved your thread since it was in the wrong section.

Now I agree with you to a point. I myself have some knowledge of python, and would be happy to have a reason to start something up on this site. It would also push me to look into something I have not used in some time.

Now having said that who would actually want to use the boards? Now you talked about A_B, and well it’s true he clearly has other languages that he has used/is using he has also tried to bring more to MWG. For example http://makewebgames.io/forumdisplay.php/361-Tutorials , and how many articles are there from him? They are all good articles, but people show little interest past HTML/PHP/CSS/JS on here. You’re right some get pushed into PHP due to it being “easier”, but it’s down to them in the end. Most who come here have a starting engine (e.g. Mccodes), and that limits them.

If you want something specific, that you know is going to be used, then why not? Right now the problem is they would be empty boards on the site, and that always look bad.

, i know that the staff will all say "it will take up memory and make work harder for staff" and i am fully aware it will,

That’s not true at all. Since its community members helping other members all we really need to do is read what’s posted, and ensure it’s not spam. If it’s a genuine post we don’t really have to do anything. We take part in threads because we are here for the same reason as everyone else.

[Sim]

A lot of them are not regonized as they are not for "Making Web Games".

I know

php/mySQL js/Ajax

VB & VB.NET

C++ & C#

Cobol =]

I am also experienced with DirectX and Windows API ;-=]

[Nickson]

You're all making assumptions which are not true at all.

First off there is another section that is aimed at anything that has to do with a computer, which you can find here http://makewebgames.io/forumdisplay.php/261-Technics

if you look rather well, you'll see that the .NET Framework has even it's own board, due to AB asking for it, and many other developers around here knowing it. If you would open up that board you'll see that no one has made a single thread/contribution except AB! We can't simply support every programming language that exists if there is no interest in them. It has been said many, many times that if a certain subject or language gets a lot of interest, that it will get it's own board. But then there needs to be a demand for it, which currently there isn't.

The fact that "it doesn't have anything to do with webgames, so it doesn't belong here" is wrong as well. We welcome ANY posts about any subject that's actually anything ICT related. If it doesn't fit the domain, we'll just get another domain name, point it to these forums and make it fit ;) It's not very hard to do. But as I've said before. First there has to be a certain demand, then we'll create the boards for it. We already have too many boards as it is, so we won't just add any if there is nothing to see. Also, MWG has an area for MCC but that doesn't mean we only support MCC. We want to ADD more, but we can't do that without the knowledge and the people wanting it...

So in other words there is no disregard of other languages, it's just that there is no demand or activity for them. The best example for this would be the .net framework board. We have a lot of .net developers (vb, vb.net, c#, ...) yet none of them has posted there. This is the same for all other languages.

Now back to your original question. Make some threads about a language, we'll notice, a board will be added for it. But a board without content is rather useless. If you have a certain suggestion you do not wish to say in public yet, then feel free to PM me about it.

I myself could post a lot of things within .net, c or java boards, but posting when there is no demand for would be kind of pointless as well. That being said, I would love to add more boards about other languages!

[Rory_M]

There has been no demand and that is why i am giving people chance now to put your name forward and try and change that, sorry for jumping to assumptions about the staff.

[Rory_M]

A lot of them are not regonized as they are not for "Making Web Games".

I know

php/mySQL js/Ajax

VB & VB.NET

C++ & C#

Cobol =]

I am also experienced with DirectX and Windows API ;-=]

Are you putting yourself forward for new sections?

[Nickson]

There has been no demand and that is why i am giving people chance now to put your name forward and try and change that, sorry for jumping to assumptions about the staff.

Someone putting his name forward isn't enough. We need to have people who can supply info, and people who need that info... and well, they need to make threads as well. But if you manage to compile a list of users who would like such stuff, I'll be happy to receive it and do something with it.

[Rory_M]

Ok so we have one person me, if anyone else wants this, not if you think it will work or be good, but if you want this then put yourself forwards or message me or a member of staff.

[Nickson]

Let them just post here, with what they would like to see or do, much easier for all of us ;)

and mr runthis, don't do that please :)

[Anonymous]

Trying to bring some sanity to the idiocy above, C is probably the most powerful of all the low-end languages when it comes to web work; I'll ignore C# (sorry Alain), C++ is seldom well written and is often confused with C itself or is a linkage workaround.

I'd be all for a C section, however looking at the respective skills that seem to be around, there are better places to discuss it at length. Plus there is the case that used in a web-context; C is rather unusual; plugins for MySQL and PHP are easy enough to write but bring about a wealth of problems unless you have a decent host who is prepared to allow binary extensions. You also run into unfortunate cross-platform issues notably with sockets, although like most things those can be worked around if you prepared to degrade certain aspects under a Windows host.

As for the remainder; I already do a lot of work in Python, it's a neat language, but again, seldom well written. People seem to have tendency to pick inappropriate languages for the task at hand and due to its simplicity Python takes a lot of punishment in that respect.

Java; I'm not fan of; the "write once, run anywhere" tagline just never held true enough for it be a viable proposition although I do retain a few libraries for that just-in-case moment.

MySQL/Ajax - or perhaps Sim meant SQL and ECMAScript - yes, there is obviously a lot of call for those, though looking at the state of most of the SQL presented here from plugins to cronjobs, from full games to peoples signatures, I suspect very few have taken the time to browse the documentation. Ajax is great fun if used well, overuse can be irritating, but it's hardly a full blown language as such.

If anybody takes the time to read some of *the* great books; ie TAOCP, then it can be demonstrated that the language itself is not overly important. How it's used is of course - developing algorithms to for example produce a twitter clone in COBOL would be unwise, but not impossible. At the same time, using PHP for a full blown accounts package is idiocy - just look at the current recommendations to use abs(intval($_GET[...])) to ""secure"" your inputs. Perhaps instead of a new forum section(s) to encompass different languages, people need to spend more time looking in depth at the current languages they profess to being so familiar with.

Just my 2c

[Rory_M]

Thank you for your contribution Anonymous.

[Danny696]

A forum based around a PHP engine and people dont want to know about PHP, strange ugh :/

Well, I'd be interested in C# tuts, Ive looking into alot of languages, Python included, and Pearl, but now I'm looking into C, and will probably start to learn it, so tuts would be nice. :)

[Nickson]

What you say is very true Anonymous, I share your opinion deeply. Many people here claim to know enough, but in reality they don't. unfortunately I can't control what people would do! Even though I'd like to see some more quality on the work that is being presented here, right now. Maybe it all happens just because the current average knowledge-level is rather low..

I for one, would love to see some more analysis and design, which I can even participate in, but I don't think many people could read any work I create. This means we would have to start from 0 to a certain basic point. But that will take time, and it also looks to me, that many people do not wish to go that route. It seems to me, they are more of the "If it works, and I can do it quickly, it's all good.. " However, this might help users selecting the right tool for their job though.

As I've said before, this forum can serve a lot more than just a place for creating web games. It's easy enough to add a second domain (lets say) serverpark.com and point it to these forums as well. We might have to change some things (like a major structure overhaul) around here, but that can all be done as long there is a demand for from our users. I know it will be hard to provide information and help about everything, this is why we don't try to do that now either.

 

A forum based around a PHP engine and people dont want to know about PHP, strange ugh :/

MWG is long past the "mcc only", we would like to move away from just one PHP engine... It's not a secret. MCC itself even agreed with that, as long as MWG keeps supporting the MCC engine, we can add other content as well.

[Dominion]

As for the remainder; I already do a lot of work in Python, it's a neat language, but again, seldom well written. People seem to have tendency to pick inappropriate languages for the task at hand and due to its simplicity Python takes a lot of punishment in that respect.

That's true for a lot of things. People often pick the wrong language for a task, and in my opinion it is often due to ignorance of what's out there.

 

At the same time, using PHP for a full blown accounts package is idiocy - just look at the current recommendations to use abs(intval($_GET[...])) to ""secure"" your inputs. Perhaps instead of a new forum section(s) to encompass different languages, people need to spend more time looking in depth at the current languages they profess to being so familiar with.

Well I would love to agree on this you need to look at the context that the abs(intval()) is being recommended for. Then we're back to the “As long as it works” attitude. Then you need to keep in mind just what kind of sites are using it. No point in overdoing everything on a small project just because you need to for a larger project.

You need to experiment with with a wide variety of languages in order to make a fully informed decision on what is best for your project, otherwise knowing a language in depth is pointless. You as much said so yourself -

If anybody takes the time to read some of *the* great books; ie TAOCP, then it can be demonstrated that the language itself is not overly important. How it's used is of course - developing algorithms to for example produce a twitter clone in COBOL would be unwise, but not impossible.

How do I know it's unwise unless I am both aware of this language's limitations, and what others can offer? COBOL is not going to be used for something like twitter by anyone who even reads a definition of what it is... but there are much closer languages that could be a poor choice to carry out a task, and are used simply because the developer is limited to that way. I would be very shocked if anyone knows everything PHP could offer, and no one knows every function it has available to it. This is why it's considered so powerful. It's also why php.net is rather good when you're trying new things. ;)

My point is experimenting with new languages is a must for anyone, otherwise all that will happen is people will pick the one language they are accustomed to just because they believe it's the best choice for them when in fact... it's not. This links back to the first quote.

[Anonymous]

Oh I'm with you in respect of needing to experiment with languages to discover their pro's and cons and I'm certainly guilty of misusing languages "because I can". Project Euler has often been quoted as a good site to experiment with a variety of different languages, certainly looking at some of the entries can often reveal why the more experienced choose a different set of languages, but I'm not so sure.

Convenience often wins the day though and the more I learn about different languages, the more I realize how many languages are really in use in everything we use. Thankfully, I'm comfortable with my knowledge in a number of languages to keep my head above water in most fields, but I do fall back to a select few when I don't have the time or inclination to learn the nuances of a new environment quickly enough to solve a particular problem.

There is however little excuse for glossing over the basics - what constitutes a character, a string, a list, an integer, etc but even that can be toyed with to an extend with the more OOPS orientated languages (Java and JavaScript certainly). To me, it seems that certain key basics are missing from peoples knowledge; perhaps that is experience, or maybe a different mentality at looking at how languages develop and are used. In either case it is certainly clear that the documentation for many languages needs to improve dramatically, something that a select few do seem to have addressed - at least as far as my understanding goes.

The OP may well have a point in that addressing the situation in forums is the start to develop the skills that will apply across all languages and all platforms.

And yes, I know COBOL was a far fetched example, but those older languages can be pinned to certain key industries whereas today, the current crop of ""popular"" languages are much more generalized which to a certain extent dilutes their capabilities. If I want to do high speed number crunching, I'll use assembler with C linkage to possibly a Python application using one of the (X)window toolkits. Trying to do everything in one language just doesn't cut it anymore. Databases? How many people use NoSQL solutions atop a SQL engine? It makes sense assuming you have the time and skills to create the mashup. The same should hold true for development.

As a not overly relevant example, I believe the ranks in the MCCodes engine are computed by running query after query - each query locking the entire table in turn whereas storing the relevant values in something like a zlist in memcache either natively or via one of the excellent NoSQL providers theoretically yields superb gains at little cost.

"Mix and match" I should adopt that as a key phrase.

[Sim]

I can't believe my little history lesson of MWG being criminalexistance was deleted, when I said maybe MWG should do a new domain change and none of these spanish posts where deleted.. how cruel

[Nickson]

I can't believe my little history lesson of MWG being criminalexistance was deleted, when I said maybe MWG should do a new domain change and none of these spanish posts where deleted.. how cruel

It had nothing to do with the topic => posts gone :) and it wasn't a little history lesson, it was a random comment that had nothing to do with the OP. I could delete your last post for the same reason as well..

And no we won't do a domain change. All I said was that we could add one ;)

Check your pm..

[Dominion]

There is however little excuse for glossing over the basics - what constitutes a character, a string, a list, an integer, etc but even that can be toyed with to an extend with the more OOPS orientated languages (Java and JavaScript certainly). To me, it seems that certain key basics are missing from peoples knowledge; perhaps that is experience, or maybe a different mentality at looking at how languages develop and are used. In either case it is certainly clear that the documentation for many languages needs to improve dramatically, something that a select few do seem to have addressed - at least as far as my understanding goes.

This is why. Well the documentation is always handy, tutorials are very useful, and nothing beats first hand experience. It's also why so many people fall to things like Jquery: clear documentation. In my opinion it's the thing holding many new developers back, but once you understand the syntax of one language it often becomes easy to apply logic when learning new things. At least I now find learning a new programming language much easier then my first was.

 

The OP may well have a point in that addressing the situation in forums is the start to develop the skills that will apply across all languages and all platforms.

True, but the other point stands : people need to be willing to learn. We can't do everything for them in another language just like we won't now for PHP.

 

And yes, I know COBOL was a far fetched example, but those older languages can be pinned to certain key industries whereas today, the current crop of ""popular"" languages are much more generalized which to a certain extent dilutes their capabilities. If I want to do high speed number crunching, I'll use assembler with C linkage to possibly a Python application using one of the (X)window toolkits. Trying to do everything in one language just doesn't cut it anymore. Databases? How many people use NoSQL solutions atop a SQL engine? It makes sense assuming you have the time and skills to create the mashup. The same should hold true for development.

Well one language will always limit you. This is just the way the web has developed. Ajax is a good example - you don't `need it` to make the site seem better. Could be calling a php file or doing any number of things. It's there be choice. You're right, very few sites (if any) now only use one language.

 

As a not overly relevant example, I believe the ranks in the MCCodes engine are computed by running query after query - each query locking the entire table in turn whereas storing the relevant values in something like a zlist in memcache either natively or via one of the excellent NoSQL providers theoretically yields superb gains at little cost.

Just optimizing what's there would make mccodes a relatively small resource engine. The main problem is people don't bother.

Edited August 8, 2011 by Dominion

[a_bertrand]

My own opinions:

- Switching from one language to another is not simply matter of learning the syntax and a few functions, it's actually a lot more. If you know how to code with at least one language usually you will take about a couple of weeks before you may start really to work with another. Yet before you really can code correctly with this new language and framework (usually a language is not just a set of keywords but contains also some libraries), you will need 6-18 months. Which means, switching from one language to the other is something expensive in term of time, and therefore you will not want to deal with more than one language for you different projects even if this is hardly doable as you may need HTML, CSS, JS, SQL and some backend (PHP, C, Java or whatever). But the less you change between language the better it is. So saying that you should experiment with a language for a given problem may be true but in practice you will stick with a language which will fit most cases.

- C for web oriented matters? Nope sorry it's certainly not the best choice. You can do it, sure, but you will have certainly an harder time than others even like PHP. And harder time means longer development time and more error prone.

- A language doing all is not cutting anymore? Well, yes and no. Certainly some languages do offer some advantage over some others in certain areas, but mixing C, Assembler and Python in a single project will make like just extremely difficult and will produce a software hardly maintainable. BTW Assembler may or may not be faster than C... depends how you write in assembler or in C and what you do exactly. Today you will hardly use assembler beside for some very specific areas. Even talking about C / C++ vs C# speed:

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ricom/archive/2005/05/19/420158.aspx

If you don't want to read all those blog posts (which btw are not running with the latest .NET either) shows that the first 6 version of their C++ code was actually slower than a first C# code... Shows that getting better results with C / C++ is not given, same for assembler!

So trust me, don't spend too much time trying to learn 200 different languages, as you will never end and never master any. What counts is what you will use at your company or which language you know better. You are extremely good with python and you have all your libs written in python? Stick with it. If you know very well PHP and do only web development then don't switch either. On the other side if you need to do GUI, server and web development then choose a language which will do all those for you in a correct way.

Again this is my own opinion and experience.

[runthis]

could not have said it any better.

Although sometimes it is beneficial for your c program to interact with your online database for your website.

Audiogalaxy (before it got sued by the RIAA) had the most brilliant software, i downloaded a stand-alone application, roughly 200kb in size

and when people in my groups would send me music on the website, it would automatically que up in my "satellite" as they called it.

This was brilliant because they have groups see, so you can join the group that sends out music you like.

At the time of them deleting all the music from their site i had a group of like 400 members, so i could make a song

and hit send, and it would que up in all of their pcs to download where they had previously specified.

It wasnt me uploading either, audiogalaxy took the song first and gave it to them. Brilliant idea.

But yes you are right, perfect your craft first.

although this line will probably get edited, lets get some spanish too

Edited August 9, 2011 by runthis
SPANISH!

[a_bertrand]

Ok just for the shake, I gave a trial of the first problem at Project Euler... Beside being an easy problem I managed to do it in one row in C#:

 

Console.WriteLine(Enumerable.Range(1, 1000).Where(row => row % 3 == 0 || row % 5 == 0).Sum());

 

Enumerable.Range generates all the numbers starting at first argument and till second one exclusive. With a LINQ statement I select only those which are either dividable by 3 or 5 and make the sum of those. Console WriteLine will output the result.

Again was just for the fun, and to see how that would work with LINQ ;)

[Spudinski]

You guys are getting off-topic.

Programming is vague, but many languages conform to a set of rules.

I'd suggest general boards created towards the theory of programming, like implementations, security, design, etc.

And when I say theory, I mean discussion of topics, eg. Implementing a security mechanism to detect weak passwords.

Much like theoretical physics, or not.