mahks Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 (edited) Why would I create yet another 4X Space game? Because all 4X I have played had poor AI and a lack of strategic & diplomatic scope. I define strategy as the following : Planning : This is a time element thing. Games usually permit a player to react fairly quickly to an unexpected situation. Fast reaction time eliminates the need for planning. Logistics : Dealing with the logistics must not be onerous, but its effect has to be there so it affects decisions. This aspect can present many strategic opportunities, like cutting lines of supply, interdicting re-enforcements and the need for intelligence regarding it. Intelligence : Lack of information can really add a lot of intrigue to a game. For this, fog of war is a must and it has to be persistent (what I mean is, if you have no assets at a location, you have little, none or old info about it). Manoeuvre : Major & minor battles, feints, diversions, supply & trade disruption, siege, retreat, looting and scouting all add to strategic scope. Many games seem to devolve into placing the majority of assets in one big fleet and going on a rampage. Basically a FPS and about as far from the type of strategy I am talking about as you can get. All these aspects of strategy are available in other genres, but rarely in a 4X. So here is my answer to that : Game overview : 4X space game Browser based, only runs in firefox Closed Beta status Basic 2d graphics Strong focus on grand strategy & diplomacy No action, not a RTS & no tactical control Role play possible Not commercial, this will never be a pay to play. (it's my hobby) Here are some screen shots & reasons why this 4X may be different : The manoeuvre element is the fleet. Fleets move between stars by an instantaneous jump, but then must wait while the jump engine re-charges. This slows down the pace of the game, giving you time to plan. It creates the feel of a turn based game, even though it is a persistent universe. Fleet movement may be automated. Patrol routes may be created to look for enemies. Gathering routes take minerals to stars with a refinery. This works kind of like railway tycoon. Other routes may be configured to move new ships to the front, return the battle weary for R & R, etc. There is an emphasis on diplomacy. Much effort has gone into creating organic "situations" that evolve into diplomatic crisis. These come about from conflict between several realms of influence. These being political relationships, trade, military actions, resource access and a feudal hierarchy. Trade is encouraged by a mechanism whereby the number of types of minerals governs the efficiency of your refineries and thus your limits to production of assets. Since only a few mineral types are found locally you must trade with other areas to gain more mineral types. The game is not played in "binges" (hours in a session) but in short play sessions. Think of a normal 4X that has its play session sliced into bits. This is by design, so that those with real lives may fit it into a busy schedule (or a fanatic gamer can play a session between all those other games) allowing them to play a deep, involving game even though "they have no time". Several people have interpreted this to mean it is a tick based game, it is not. Once your realm has grown, there is always things that need to be done, it is just not all time sensitive. Fog of war is constant. If you have no ship or spy at a star you do not know what is there, you only know what was there last time you visited. This permits a "cat & mouse" situation, where cunning can win out. Building assets takes a long time. This creates pressure to plan, as you cannot react immediately to a new threat by "popping out" fleets of new ships at a moments notice. You can build & assign additional builders to speed up a project, but there is cost there as well. A large selection of technologies are available that affect all aspects of the game. There is no "tech tree" you just research the areas you want an advantage in. you may choose to be mediocre in all or focus on a few that complement your overall strategic direction. There is a robust economic model that provides many ways to gain income and many ways to lose it. Taxation, tribute, piracy, export contracts, asset support, salaries are some of the factors. In the beginning you manage all aspects, but as your empire grows you can do less micro-management and automate repetitive tasks. There is a whole game within the game in regards to spies. Covert agents may conduct espionage, sabotage, incite labour or student unrest and incite rebellions. They can embezzle, slander and assassinate as well. The game progresses though stages; exploration, build-up, contact and then the core game play begins with diplomacy, trade & conflict. There is a play through of a typical 1st session on the website. The game begins slowly as you are mostly exploring and colonising, so the video may be a bit boring. Any suggestions on how to present a "cerebral" game and not make the presentation boring? This slow start is intentional as the game is complex and is designed so that a new player is not overwhelmed and has time to get his bearings. http://www.starlords3k.com We need a few more play testers, pm me if interested. All feedback is welcome. Edited October 7, 2015 by mahks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrikor Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Awesome =) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dnenb Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Looks impressive from your post, but as I don't have Firefox I won't be able to try. What is it that limits you to Firefox? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahks Posted December 17, 2013 Author Share Posted December 17, 2013 When I started this project (6 years ago) browsers were a mess, IE was so far out of sync with the rest, you almost had to write a separate page for it. IE did not support the new HTML 5 tags, which I really wanted to use. Chrome was either non-existent or still in its infancy, all other browsers had tiny user bases. Was just informed of the market share Chrome has now, wow, so am looking into getting it to work. If it does not require a massive rewrite, I'll go at it. Why not download Firefox in the meantime? It is a free, painless and fast download/install. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 When I started this project (6 years ago) browsers were a mess, IE was so far out of sync with the rest, you almost had to write a separate page for it. IE did not support the new HTML 5 tags, which I really wanted to use. Chrome was either non-existent or still in its infancy, all other browsers had tiny user bases. Was just informed of the market share Chrome has now, wow, so am looking into getting it to work. If it does not require a massive rewrite, I'll go at it. Why not download Firefox in the meantime? It is a free, painless and fast download/install. We shouldn't have to download another browser, that's the point, it's not the fact it's easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahks Posted December 17, 2013 Author Share Posted December 17, 2013 People download games all the time. How is downloading a browser to play a game any different? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 People download games all the time. How is downloading a browser to play a game any different? Because I don't come here to play games to download, I go to Steam for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dnenb Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 You think it's easy, but as soon as a potential player sees that you can only play if you use firefox he's out the door. I bet a minimum of 9 out of 10 potential players who are not already firefox-users will think that. As game owners we gotta make the signup-process as easy as we can in order to get players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H4x0r666 Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Goes to website -> has to search for firefox -> goes to site using firefox -> has to update firefox Mehh i pass, but the screens look good though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahks Posted December 17, 2013 Author Share Posted December 17, 2013 Goes to website -> has to search for firefox -> goes to site using firefox -> has to update firefox Goes to website -> Sees requirement for firefox -> Clicks the "download latest version of firefox" button But, I get what you all are saying, limiting the player base would be a bad thing if profit was the motive. The game is a bit complex and requires a certain amount curiosity and intelligence to play. A player who has a block against the firefox download would probably not enjoy the game. Not that I am accusing people of being unintelligent. What I mean is if the mindset is "it's too difficult" then the game will be "to difficult" All that said, I am looking at getting Chrome to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seker Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Goes to website -> Sees requirement for firefox -> Clicks the "download latest version of firefox" button But, I get what you all are saying, limiting the player base would be a bad thing if profit was the motive. The game is a bit complex and requires a certain amount curiosity and intelligence to play. A player who has a block against the firefox download would probably not enjoy the game. Not that I am accusing people of being unintelligent. What I mean is if the mindset is "it's too difficult" then the game will be "to difficult" All that said, I am looking at getting Chrome to work. Normally, I would suggest ignoring all these people. Negativity is far too commonplace around here. Actually, I still say that. However, your attitude toward potential players needs some work. It's not about being "too difficult." It's about being "worth the effort." To assume someone does not wish to go that extra step simply because it's difficult is a bit pretentious. Fact is, if players cannot go in and click around to see if it's even interesting or not, they're not likely to give it a second thought in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahks Posted December 17, 2013 Author Share Posted December 17, 2013 Normally, I would suggest ignoring all these people. I appreciate criticism. Sometime it just takes awhile for it to sink in. OK, I'll rephrase; Those who think its "Not worth the effort" to download firefox will think the game is "Not worth the effort" to learn to play. :p A good example of what I am talking about is my experience with the tutorial. My first play testers were friends, not overly computer literate or familiar with 4X games. Unsurprisingly the tutorial design evolved to accommodate that type of person. When "real" 4X players began to test, they were appalled by the "insulting" nature of the tutorial. I came to understand that people like those first testers would never play the game. Then the tutorial evolved to accommodate the real target audience. I do acknowledge that it not being cross-browser is a problem. Its not that I want to force people to use Firefox. The problem is a byproduct of the history of the game (see post 4 above) If I had tried to build it cross-browser in the beginning, it would never of came to be. Now things are different. It may be possible to get Chrome to run it, I think IE is still too far off spec. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrikor Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 OK, I'll rephrase; Those who think its "Not worth the effort" to download firefox will think the game is "Not worth the effort" to learn to play. :p I'm not sure if that's the right perspective to view it from... Players don't start off wanting to play your game. You've got to give people something (Pictures, Screenshots, Video) to make them WANT to play your game. Only after *wanting* to play the game will they make the effort. You'll have to make at least the intro page be cross-browser so that you can drag players in. There's no way around it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahks Posted December 18, 2013 Author Share Posted December 18, 2013 You'll have to make at least the intro page be cross-browser so that you can drag players in. Working on that now, for reasons you mentioned and to see how hard Chrome will be to convert into. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dnenb Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Those who think its "Not worth the effort" to download firefox will think the game is "Not worth the effort" to learn to play. :p I'd say that's an assumption you shouldn't make, even after seeing it with a few testers. I've been surprised a few times seeing what kind of people actually play my games. It might take you a while to get this working in other browsers. In the meantime you might want to add some screenshots and maybe a video to show non-firefox-users so that you up the chances of them downloading it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 What technology are you using that doesn't work in other browsers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahks Posted December 18, 2013 Author Share Posted December 18, 2013 In the meantime you might want to add some screenshots and maybe a video to show non-firefox-users so that you up the chances of them downloading it. Your the second post to mention adding screenshots. Are the screenshots not showing in post # 1 above? If you mean on the site, yes getting there, slowly... I have made some videos, I think they chase people away, more than anything. I suck at making videos. :( YouTube Channel How do you make a video about a "cerebral" game that isn't boring? I keep thinking if I had just invented chess, how would I promote it? A video of 2 people sitting across from each other staring at a table of little statues. How popular would that be on YouTube? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Your the second post to mention adding screenshots. Are the screenshots not showing in post # 1 above? If you mean on the site, yes getting there, slowly... I have made some videos, I think they chase people away, more than anything. I suck at making videos. :( YouTube Channel How do you make a video about a "cerebral" game that isn't boring? I keep thinking if I had just invented chess, how would I promote it? A video of 2 people sitting across from each other staring at a table of little statues. How popular would that be on YouTube? Who would have thought that was hilarious haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahks Posted December 18, 2013 Author Share Posted December 18, 2013 What technology are you using that doesn't work in other browsers? Nothing that prevents other browsers from working (that I know of) The problem is, it was not written as a cross-browser app. (for reasons mentioned above) So it has to be converted to cross-browser. Because I have never coded for cross-browser, I know nothing of the details. So there is a leaning curve. The massive amount of posts I have seen on the dev sites dealing with cross-browser issues, makes me cringe in anticipation... After Firebug the Chrome Dev-Tools are pitiful. That is slowing me down too. Loaded Firebug-lite for Chrome...not much better. The app is large and complex so I am just aiming to just get the home page converted for Chrome. See how that goes. So far I have only had to change some CSS and EventListeners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
URBANZ Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 why dont you make a c# wrapper built with the Gecko engine (Firefox engine) and just make a lightweight game client for now so people can just download a small 3mb app that runs your game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahks Posted December 19, 2013 Author Share Posted December 19, 2013 I am not familiar with C#. You saying people who would not download Firefox would download an exe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
URBANZ Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 well game clients people see differently as no bloatware just the application that is about 3MB nothing compared to firefox and you can add your own styles to the wrapper to fit around your game and i could always do you a wrapper in my spare time and send you the compiled exe so you can see what i mean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahks Posted December 19, 2013 Author Share Posted December 19, 2013 I don't really understand how that works... wrappers I mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahks Posted December 20, 2013 Author Share Posted December 20, 2013 Looks like I'll have to give up on the Chrome conversion. Seems Chrome has issues with iframe & visibility ... a hidden iframe isn't. Tried to change to using display rather than visibility, got all swapped, then realized why I used visibility in the first place! Arrrgghh. Display collapses the dimensions of an object, visibility does not. So you can't use display:none and referrer to things like clientWidth. Unless I am missing something? Looks like Chrome is not ready yet. ;) Will ensure the homepage can be seen in Chrome as per suggestions above, Thanks. Does anyone actually develop using Chrome? If so what tools do they use? The native dev-tools and firebug-lite seem pretty lame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyleMassacre Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 It seems to me that ALL major browsers support iframes and I know chrome supports visibility Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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