Questions concerning Mccodes and Ravan.

[SacreBleu]

Dear community,

I've been monitoring this community for a few weeks now, and finally decided this was worth signing up for.

I've been looking for a Mafia or similar script for a simple website just to showcase some things and hopefully attract a few members.

Running a Google search usually directs me to a game script offered by "Ravan".

A few Google search later about the legality of the website (I rarely trust websites that have poor written English) I ended up here where I was promptly informed that Raven Game Script was a 'illegal' copy from Mccodes.

After seeing both demos I can confirm that Ravan's Game Script is at least in GUI similar to Mccodes and so does a majority of the source code.

Seeing how this community, virtually, ignores those whom bought a license from Ravan, and also seeing how many people have bought such license, I remain with a few questions.

The first question, is rather simple, why has Mccodes not acted upon their copyright if Ravan is indeed stealing full or partial code from Mccodes, is it not crucial that you protect your IP?

I haven't seen many post where the developers of MC have informed us that they have taken steps to bring down Ravan GS because it infringes upon MC's copyright and IP.

Furthermore, legally, if your hold a Ravan license, you as a customer haven't broken any law, since you hold a legal license with Ravan. Now, if Ravan has stolen the code from MC, the latter should respond with a law suit where it tries to defend its IP. Seeing the lack of this step, one could safely assume that what Ravan has stolen is apparently not enough to warrant a law suit, therefore it is, still, perfectly legal to purchase a Ravan license, since it's legallity has not been put to doubt in court.

How is it, that this wonderful and helpful community seems to do more to help 'scammed' customers of Ravan?

I've read a few posts about Mccodes and it seems their support is rather lacking, for a $100 or $150 license I would surely expect more support than what I've seen being provided so far, if anything I'd rather pay MWG for a support license than MC.

 

Case in point, why is there a lack of support and legal action on MC's side?

If they will never instigate a legal action, by Dutch law, my Ravan license is completely legal.

Why would I pay for a $100 license from a company lacking adequate support and doesn't try to defend its IP?

[a_bertrand]

Did you ever tried to sue a "company" which is not actually one, and where the guys behind this pseudo company are in another country as yours? No? Then you should try once... loads of fun and loads of money spent.

Now I do remember that the McCode owners did actually started a few things against Raven website which as been shut down a couple of times, but that doesn't stop them to restart it.

The only thing I could say is that if you buy McCode you will have a new version of the code where Raven use an old and un-secure one. As I'm not part of McCode myself, I can just say: do whatever you want, it will not change my life, but thinking it's easy to stop somebody to use your stolen code is pure ignorance of all the troubles it means. Think that a guy took 30 years to get finally justice for a patent against Sony... And the payment from Sony at the end barely covered the costs. Cool isn't it? And the patent? Ooo something stupid called "walkman". (yes the guy won at the end... but the walkman are history in the mean time)

[Spudinski]

You raise very valid points there, SacreBleu, but unfortunately, and depending on who you ask, the answer is shocking.

Since I am in no way affiliated with MCCodes, or currently hold an active license, I'll give my say. Please note that people, sources and others is confidential.

MCCodes in my opinion just doesn't care. There are supposedly two people publicly running MCCodes at the current point in time, there may be others involved, and from previous events I certainly believe that there is.

The main story goes that two people, aliases ColdBlooded and Dabomstew created MonoCountry(abbreviated MC), a game much similar to TornCity in many ways.

I don't quite know how it ended up becoming MCCodes, but every release of MCCodes is a past release of the game MonoCountry. There's much evidence in the sources to suggest that it is a patch-together set of scripts, rather than a modal and an extendable game engine.

Coldblooded, has been known to say that he is the "financial" aspect of MCCodes, but it seems to me he is a lot more than that, I think he is the only one running MCCodes at this point. He has also been known to be after only that: capital. The prices for MCCodes is very expensive for what it's actually worth, and please know that I've been using/studying the technologies they use in their engine since '05.

The thing to remember about some countries and businesses though, is that in some countries copyright isn't automatically assigned to new works, but has to be applied for. I don't know about New Zealand(MCCodes supposed land of registration), what their laws are. Another thing is also that a lawsuit is very costly, especially for these types of issues. It has to be examined, proven, and then proven again - this takes a lot of time and a lot of money. Sources has told me that MCCodes isn't a registered business, but they are acting as one. Certain laws prohibits more than one person trading goods without a business license.

So to come to a conclusion after the above being said, in my opinion, they just don't care because it will be a large investment for them to actually go through with the lawsuit.

I do think the idea of MCCodes is great, but the business model, not so much.

Let me know if you want to know anything else, but I think what I said previously should clear up some of the confusion you may have.

[Spudinski]

Now I do remember that the McCode owners did actually started a few things against Raven website which as been shut down a couple of times, but that doesn't stop them to restart it.

Just to clarify, that was mostly due to the work of faithful members of this forum. Officially ravan.info has never been suspended though domain registrar did release the domain name.

[SacreBleu]

Did you ever tried to sue a "company" which is not actually one, and where the guys behind this pseudo company are in another country as yours? No? Then you should try once... loads of fun and loads of money spent.

Now I do remember that the McCode owners did actually started a few things against Raven website which as been shut down a couple of times, but that doesn't stop them to restart it.

The only thing I could say is that if you buy McCode you will have a new version of the code where Raven use an old and un-secure one. As I'm not part of McCode myself, I can just say: do whatever you want, it will not change my life, but thinking it's easy to stop somebody to use your stolen code is pure ignorance of all the troubles it means. Think that a guy took 30 years to get finally justice for a patent against Sony... And the payment from Sony at the end barely covered the costs. Cool isn't it? And the patent? Ooo something stupid called "walkman". (yes the guy won at the end... but the walkman are history in the mean time)

 

You don't have to sue a company to defend your IP, you can also sue an individual.

Neither did I mention that this is going to take several days to figure out, the only problem I have is that Mccodes have done rediculously few things to combat or inform users about the infringement.

Wouldn't it be a good idea to post an announcement information would-be customers about the existence of Ravan and its infringement?

Luckily, I have not purchased a license from either two, and considering that it is against my principles to endorse piracy or copyright infringement, I won't purchase one from Ravan either.

It just struck me as odd, seeing there are plenty of legitimate users and Mccodes asks a nice fee for the usage of their product, I would only assume that it would at the very least be possible to start a law suit.

I am not familar with the law in other countries, but in Holland if you sue another person, seeing as Ravan Scripts is not a company, you can easily start a free law suit.

I am not looking for a dramatic discussions, neither am I pointing fingers, I am simply asking why it is not apparant that Mccodes is doing what they can, economically or otherwise, to actively protect their IP or shield other consumers into making the same mistakes.

Judging by the Google searches, Ravan is more popular than Mccodes, therefore it is by default, nearly impossible to judge that Ravan is using stolen code.

Making this more public through a majority of channels and forums, would certainly ease the amounts of purchases Ravan receives.

Furthermore, I am well aware of the costs of legal action, however, if people continue to purchase licenses from Ravan, you would make an income either, so both actions cost income and/or sales.

 

You raise very valid points there, SacreBleu, but unfortunately, and depending on who you ask, the answer is shocking.

Since I am in no way affiliated with MCCodes, or currently hold an active license, I'll give my say. Please note that people, sources and others is confidential.

MCCodes in my opinion just doesn't care. There are supposedly two people publicly running MCCodes at the current point in time, there may be others involved, and from previous events I certainly believe that there is.

The main story goes that two people, aliases ColdBlooded and Dabomstew created MonoCountry(abbreviated MC), a game much similar to TornCity in many ways.

I don't quite know how it ended up becoming MCCodes, but every release of MCCodes is a past release of the game MonoCountry. There's much evidence in the sources to suggest that it is a patch-together set of scripts, rather than a modal and an extendable game engine.

Coldblooded, has been known to say that he is the "financial" aspect of MCCodes, but it seems to me he is a lot more than that, I think he is the only one running MCCodes at this point. He has also been known to be after only that: capital. The prices for MCCodes is very expensive for what it's actually worth, and please know that I've been using/studying the technologies they use in their engine since '05.

The thing to remember about some countries and businesses though, is that in some countries copyright isn't automatically assigned to new works, but has to be applied for. I don't know about New Zealand(MCCodes supposed land of registration), what their laws are. Another thing is also that a lawsuit is very costly, especially for these types of issues. It has to be examined, proven, and then proven again - this takes a lot of time and a lot of money. Sources has told me that MCCodes isn't a registered business, but they are acting as one. Certain laws prohibits more than one person trading goods without a business license.

So to come to a conclusion after the above being said, in my opinion, they just don't care because it will be a large investment for them to actually go through with the lawsuit.

I do think the idea of MCCodes is great, but the business model, not so much.

Let me know if you want to know anything else, but I think what I said previously should clear up some of the confusion you may have.

This makes a lot of it perfectly clear, and actually acknowledges what I thought.

One of the reasons I haven't purchased a license is the way the license is distributed and how, MCcodes acts but isn't registered as a business.

Neither have I found an official copyright or patent on any of their code, therefore discrediting the claims that Ravan is using illegal code.

From a moral standpoint what Ravan does, is unfair and misconduct, from a legal point what they do, is not illegal since it hasn't been proven

that it is.

However, I would feel safer as a customer if MCcodes or Cold would be more actively, either informing or otherwise

the users about the dangers of Ravan.

I am astounded by the fact that MWG, hasn't made any attempts to do so too, seeing that there are many, many posts about Ravan and MCcodes.

Would it be perhaps, useful to make a thread where people are being informed about 'scams'?

 

Just to clarify, that was mostly due to the work of faithful members of this forum. Officially ravan.info has never been suspended though domain registrar did release the domain name.

This only further, enforces my claim, that this community is more capable and affectionate to MCcodes than the developers themselves.

I have nothing but envy for this community, but I am hesitant to do business with MCcodes considering their passiveness in this whole issue.

Edited August 18, 2011 by SacreBleu

[a_bertrand]

Don't think I took an offensive attitude against you...

[SacreBleu]

Don't think I took an offensive attitude against you...

Perhaps it's the text barrier.

I have edited my post to reflect your initial intentions.

The somewhat sarcastic and rhetorical questions gave your post an overall offensive tone.

Still, thank you for clearing up a few things, many I had assumed, but since you're, possibly, more closer to the developers and run an amazingly devotive

community, your answers have some merrit.

[a_bertrand]

I'm not really all that closer to the developers and I have actually nothing to do with the code / mods or games run with McCode myself.

[Spudinski]

I have nothing but envy for this community, but I am hesitant to do business with MCcodes considering their passiveness in this whole issue.

Morally, it would be wrong to just "get" a copy of the sources and say you paid.

But... I don't think you should be all that concerned about doing business with MCCodes. As you already know, most problems you can have is only technological related, and many people here are willing to help with that.

Legally speaking, there would be no conflict with anyone if you purchase either from Ravan or MCCodes.

But purchasing from ravan, as said by Alian, means that there wouldn't be support or upgrades. People here will also be less likely to help, as there is no way to confirm if someone has been scammed by ravan, or if they just leeched a torrent.

The choice is really yours.

And onto making a thread to help scammed people: There are plenty, there is one particular thread you might want to read called "MCCodes Copyright Information", it's floating somewhere in the announcements.

[SacreBleu]

Morally, it would be wrong to just "get" a copy of the sources and say you paid.

But... I don't think you should be all that concerned about doing business with MCCodes. As you already know, most problems you can have is only technological related, and many people here are willing to help with that.

Legally speaking, there would be no conflict with anyone if you purchase either from Ravan or MCCodes.

But purchasing from ravan, as said by Alian, means that there wouldn't be support or upgrades. People here will also be less likely to help, as there is no way to confirm if someone has been scammed by ravan, or if they just leeched a torrent.

The choice is really yours.

And onto making a thread to help scammed people: There are plenty, there is one particular thread you might want to read called "MCCodes Copyright Information", it's floating somewhere in the announcements.

I agree, it is morally complicated perhaps wrong, to purchase a Ravan license.

However, both Ravan's Script and MCcodes are floating on the internet, and as much as a RS own can't prove he legally owns the code, neither can somebody whom owns a license for MC.

Subsequently, since RC is based on MC most of what applies to MC can be applied to RC as well, it's simply an art of not telling which of the two licenses you hold.

I understand the community's stance towards Ravan owners, and I partially agree.

As for the topic you recommended.

It does raise the concern of Ravan.

However, wouldn't it be better if it would be in this side of the forum?

Since it's general practise to put the announcement in their corresponding forum, just a suggestion.

Secondly, the topic was most notably used to distribute the new EULA for MCcodes, it was not primarily used to discuss

unauthorized, redistribution of the code.

Edited August 18, 2011 by SacreBleu

[Spudinski]

Sorry for that then, I must have referred you to the wrong topic. Unfortunately though, I can't seem to find old posts about ravan. I know there was an announcement about it a few months back(last year), it must probably have been pruned.

If a_bertrand or another staff member can retrieve it for you, it should give you some insight. There was also someone else who asked pretty much the same as you, but I also can't find it.

The thread was a conversation going in circles, so I doubt you would actually be contempt with it. The thing I do remember of that topic, is that MCCodes would offer discounted prices to buy their engine for "certain" people whom had been scammed by ravan.

[Dominion]

You mean this? http://makewebgames.io/showthread.php/36505-MCCodes-Copyright-Information

[SacreBleu]

That's the particular topic I was talking about.

The first post only shows a newly updated EULA and Terms of License.

It does not raise awareness that Ravan is currently distributing MC's code.

Simply put, the topic asks community support to raise concerns about websites running unauthorized code.

It does not raise awareness, nor is it being updated to reflect the current situation.

The problem, which comes forth from the topic, however, is the fact that MC is willing to go to the furthest extend of the law to procecute people running unauthorized code.

It is my belief, that this by itself, will be unfruitful, mainly because the users have a license agreement with Ravan.

This means, all legal issues concerning the product and the license should be taken up with Ravan instead of the customer. Even though, the license itself is, perhaps, illegal, the customer obtained a legal license for a purchased product, therefore is not directly accountable for the actions of the company or person which sold the license.

To elaborate on this, Apple is sueing HTC for using some of its copyrights and patents, even though, some of them have been warranted, Apple is unable to sue me, as HTC's customer to use code owned by Apple. It only becomes illegal to use that said code after a court has decided that it is.

 

This situation is very, very unfortunate, mainly because MC's license will set you back $100 or $150, which is an enormous amount of money, especially if you compare it against RS's script and license cost.

Granted you might receive updates and sorts, but it is to my understanding that much of the support given for the code is from the community not from MC.

Anyway, $150 for a license for a website script that is mainly being optimised by the community and is apparently, quite insecure, is way too much.

Whilst, I will not purchase a license from a vendor that supposedly, stole the software product and is, probably, unable to support it after purchase.

Too bad, from the Demo, RC looked very solid, has a nice template, which, supposedly, is also duplicated from another website.

The price however, seemed too low for such a complete package.

While MC's package is lacking in template design, and is too costly for what it currently offers.

The security is the main issue, MC, is not responsible for hacking of 'my' source, however, 'that' source is infact, not 'my' source, but theirs, I am simply licensed to use that source.

This raises the question of the professionalism of the code and conduct of MC, as much as with Ravan of course.

Case in point, if my community would to host MC, and my database would be duplicated and published, MC would not be responsible for delivering buggy code. I find that, considering the purchase price of the script, unacceptable.

[a_bertrand]

Nope, if you buy a stolen car, even if you didn't stole the car yourself you could be considered guilty too, and in every case the car will be given back to its true owner so you would lose the money you payed for. This is the law in most countries and for sure in all EU countries. Same would apply here, even if you could demonstrate you wasn't aware of the issue with Ravan and their illegal license, you would still be eligible to close your site due to the use of the illegal software.

[SacreBleu]

Physical items are different from software licenses, you can´t compare either two.

We´re talking about copyright infringement, not actual physical theft.

By design the European law, or merely guidelines, every country can decide how and how much of it they are going to implement.

Holland, thus far, hasn´t and there have already been cases where an owner of a license wasn´t accountable.